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Long AC Diversion To YVR Due Unruly Passengers
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:37 | Сообщение # 26
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Please read the article again. Then please show us where it says the men were (or could have been, or looked like they were about to be) fighting between themselves?

In fact it seems to state the opposite: Cpl. Sherrdean Turley, a spokeswoman for the police, said in an e-mail that although the two men were not brawling “they were intoxicated and weren’t listening to anything they were told to do/asked to do by the airline crew.”?
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:38 | Сообщение # 27
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OK...if I haven't missed anything in the posts...IF they were indeed intoxicated BEFORE boarding, why were they allowed to board in the first place. Are there not procedures for "Denied Boarding" under these circumstances??? So, therefore, wouldn't that put Customer Service (CS) at YYZ in-line for questioning as well, beyond that of the FA's?? I don't care what status these individual's may allegedly have on AC, but that SHOULD NOT put them in a position to circumvent Denied Boarding procedures at the gate, correct?
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:38 | Сообщение # 28
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You do what a bartender does and cut them off. If you are at a big pub or club it is unlikely that you will get served every time by the same person, however there is communication between the bar staff of whom has had too many. Also you are trained to look for the signs of intoxication. Surely FA's go through this training, if not they should because they are serving alcohol.

Unfortunately you can't give someone the boot in a plane like in a pub, so this is the best that AC could do to say "You're outta here"
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:38 | Сообщение # 29
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Why?

I don't know about everyone else but as I get older I'm getting pretty tired of irresponsible idiots ruining the fun for the rest of us who would know their tolerance or limits. This isn't just from booze but many other things.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:38 | Сообщение # 30
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Quote (bar_rodoy)
Please read the article again. Then please show us where it says the men were (or could have been, or looked like they were about to be) fighting between themselves?

In fact it seems to state the opposite: Cpl. Sherrdean Turley, a spokeswoman for the police, said in an e-mail that although the two men were not brawling “they were intoxicated and weren’t listening to anything they were told to do/asked to do by the airline crew.”?

I've undergone training as a bartender, a multi-week program held in my case at a university and with materials from the Canadian Tourism Human Resource Council and there is indeed training about when to cut people off. As well as how to do it, I'm not sure what type of training flight attendants go through hopefully someone else will comment on that. I agree that when you have multiple people serving in this case passengers then you need to communicate with each other if someone appears to be reaching their limit or drinking too quickly.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:39 | Сообщение # 31
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Their names have been published since the story was first reported. If you take the trouble to look, you can find them in about 10 seconds.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:40 | Сообщение # 32
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I would suspect that the 2 pax were not obeying the orders as to in-flight safety and security as well as annoying other pax, including the use of foul language or otherwise offensive behaviors - which can far too often come out while drunk. They could have been walking around too much, perhaps the flight was in or around turbulence so should have been in their seats with the belts for their own and other's safety. Perhaps they were disobeying the f/a's as to not get more drinks and may have pushed or shoved one or more with them. FA's have zero tolerance backed by their airline and the governments of the home country of their airline as to any assaults of flight crews. I would not doubt they were loud, annoying other pax who may be just trying to get some sleep or otherwise relax and didn't need nor should they tolarate such behavior.

It appears the situation was bad enough to take such action and I give support to AC in having enough guts to take the actions they did on these two fools.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:40 | Сообщение # 33
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Quote (bar_rodoy)
I would suspect that the 2 pax were not obeying the orders as to in-flight safety and security as well as annoying other pax, including the use of foul language or otherwise offensive behaviors - which can far too often come out while drunk. They could have been walking around too much, perhaps the flight was in or around turbulence so should have been in their seats with the belts for their own and other's safety. Perhaps they were disobeying the f/a's as to not get more drinks and may have pushed or shoved one or more with them. FA's have zero tolerance backed by their airline and the governments of the home country of their airline as to any assaults of flight crews. I would not doubt they were loud, annoying other pax who may be just trying to get some sleep or otherwise relax and didn't need nor should they tolarate such behavior.

It appears the situation was bad enough to take such action and I give support to AC in having enough guts to take the actions they did on these two fools.

Not at all, unless you advocate a sobering surrendering of individual rights and responsibility. Most employers do their due diligence, but how do you propose that RIM or any other company can prevent two of its employees from misbehaving outside the office? You imply some sort of psychological assessment by the employer may have been required prior to letting them out of their cubicle. I'm interested in what safeguards and assurances you can suggest that can guarantee that I, as an employee myself, do not make an error in judgment and publicly embarrass my firm next time I travel on company business. I don't see the benefit to revealing the name of the employer of these two gentlemen, er clowns, no matter how large the company. Would it have been published if they were two staff from Bill's Plumbing Warehouse in Brampton? Exceptions (publicly-elected officials for example) do of course exist. Just ask Ms. Guergis.
Following your logic, if two people on the way to visit family (they were on a flight only for this purpose) had misbehaved in similar fashion, how should we hold the family members accountable for the actions of the passengers?
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:40 | Сообщение # 34
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It shouldn't make you think that, but it might. When people see that misbehaving management or executives' misdeeds are publicized, the average consumer now has that association in their subconscious. The reason that their company was brought is because as I stated earlier:
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:40 | Сообщение # 35
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The suspension (and possible firing) of these 2 individuals will serve as a future warning and hopeful deterent for immature RIM employees who can't hold their liquor. That's all that can be done.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 36
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Huh? Above you say you are quite familiar with alcohol, but you seem to think they needed something to set them off? If someone is drunk enough, they need nil, ninca, nada, zilch, nothing to set them off. Not a single thing. We had the case of the businessman who crapped on the drinks cart. Why? No reason, none at all, other than excess alcohol is sufficient to explain it.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 37
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The diversion due to the behavior is naturally going to be news due to its impact on the other passengers. Then the very next question to ask is who were these two guys and what is their relationship to each other. I don't see anyone saying just because these two were from RIM, that all folks from RIM are guilty of something. If you're making that leap, that's on you, not the media.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 38
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With respect, that's a pretty naive assumption: thinking that many readers won't make a negative assumption between misbehaving employees and their employer when both are published as in this instance. It's not right, it's certainly unfortunate, but it's human nature. The fact that they are (were?) employed by RIM offers no substance to the story other than furnishing salacious detail.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 39
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So that they can be shamed into submission. Just like the stockades of olde.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 40
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Just to add some closure to this issue, RIM has decided to fire the two men due to their 'unprofessional behavior'.

Reported by CTV News:
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews....-111205
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 41
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Time for "The Hangover, Part 3"?
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:41 | Сообщение # 42
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Don't you have any data protection laws in USA/Canada? Don't indivudals have privacy rights?
The stockade ( I assume you mean pillory) is a medieval punishment which has been done awaqy cneturies ago.

The guys mis behaved and they pay dearly for that by losing their jobs, paying a large sum to the airline and probably will not be able to gain a similar job for the rest of their lives. I think that is a lot of punishment and that should do it.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 43
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Arrest records are public in most US and CA jurisdictions.

That's why we know, for instance, that the head of the FAA was arrested for drunk driving last weekend.

And these two were arrested, so we know their names as well.

In fact they've plead guilty and have been given suspended sentences.

I suppose RIM waited for the guilty pleas before firing them, it gives them more justification.

I think it's wrong that arrest records are public, because arrests are not convictions.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 44
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I fully agree on this and I am glad to live in a country where citizen's rights are respected. IMHO,if that had happened on a German carrier they might not even had diverted.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 45
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Provided you can become a citizen. Ask the millions of Turks in Germany who can't become citizens about their rights.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 46
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Excuse me, but except for being able to vote all "aliens" liviing or staying in Germany enjoy the full protection of the Constitution and the laws, which, of course, they also have to follow.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 47
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I'd say that's a pretty fundamental right. The U.S. fought a war of independence over taxation without representation. And how about the requirement that spouses joining a Turk living in Germany must demonstrate they can speak German, a requirement that doesn't apply to most other nationalities?
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 48
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But is being brought back under the current government under new omnibus crime legislation.
 
bar_rodoyДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:42 | Сообщение # 49
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Not quite. But I've seen criminological studies with strong evidence that public shame and embaressment are far more effective than many other sanctions.
 
cassini-mДата: Среда, 07.12.2011, 16:43 | Сообщение # 50
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Somebody suggesting that individual rights are better protected/respected in Germany than in North America.
 
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